MM2.1 -> MM3.3 migration. To hold or not hold
Hi,
I've spent the past week slowly migrating from MM2.1 to MM3.3. One of the lists migrated was set to hold all user posts for moderation, as the list isn't a discussion list but a newsletter sent out on occasion to user/members. I am seeing unexpected behaviour post-migration.
The list settings have automatically (and appropriately) been set to hold mails when I go to Settings -> Message Acceptance -> "Default action to take when a non-member posts to the list" -- it says Hold for moderation
The migrated members when viewed all have a Moderation Action of Hold for moderation, which is also expected.
When I add new members through Mass operations -> Mass subscribe, the new members have a Moderation Action of None.
I've looked through the archives of this list, and from what I can tell:
According to https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/message/...
None does not mean no moderation. None means use the list default as opposed to one of the specific actions defined
The thread at https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/U... seems to also repeat the above, that none means the configured setting for the list.
However, I've just done a test of a newly added user (a test email account for me), seen that the Moderation Action is None, but when I posted to the list from the address, it was not held for moderation, and went through.
Am I missing something with the expected functionality?
If it helps; Mailman Core Version GNU Mailman 3.3.8 (Tom Sawyer) Mailman Core API Version 3.1 Mailman Core Python Version 3.11.2 (main, Sep 14 2024, 03:00:30) [GCC 12.2.0] Postorius Version 1.3.8
Cheers, Mark
On 11/16/24 21:41, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
When I add new members through Mass operations -> Mass subscribe, the new members have a Moderation Action of
None.
Correct.
I've looked through the archives of this list, and from what I can tell:
According to https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/message/...
None does not mean no moderation. None means use the list default as opposed to one of the specific actions defined
The thread at https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/U... seems to also repeat the above, that
nonemeans the configured setting for the list.However, I've just done a test of a newly added user (a test email account for me), seen that the Moderation Action is
None, but when I posted to the list from the address, it was not held for moderation, and went through.Am I missing something with the expected functionality?
A member's moderation action of None means use the Default action to take when a member posts to the list. Is that set to Hold for moderation?
Actually, it is good practice to set that to Hold for moderation for
all lists or at least all those that don't require moderator approval
for subscription to prevent a spammer from subscribing and spamming the
list. Then, upon approving a member's post you can also set the member's
moderation action to default processing and upon discarding a spammers
post, you can also set the spammer's moderation action to Discard.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi Mark,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 11/16/24 21:41, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
However, I've just done a test of a newly added user (a test email account for me), seen that the Moderation Action is None, but when I posted to the list from the address, it was not held for moderation, and went through. Am I missing something with the expected functionality? A member's moderation action of None means use the Default action to take when a member posts to the list. Is that set to Hold for moderation? Actually, it is good practice to set that to Hold for moderation for all lists or at least all those that don't require moderator approval for subscription to prevent a spammer from subscribing and spamming the list. Then, upon approving a member's post you can also set the member's moderation action to default processing and upon discarding a spammers post, you can also set the spammer's moderation action to Discard.
I agree. My point was that the list is set as default to hold for moderation. But, a new user who sends an email to the list, whose Moderation Action is set to "none", was able to email the list without the email being held for moderation. I would have expected based on the threads I quoted, that a user who is added to the list via Mass subscribe, would not be able to send to the list without it being held.
I'm happy to do more testing, provide other information/logs as desired if that would help?
cheers, Mark
Hi,
are you sure you are both talking about the same setting?
You wrote initially:
"The list settings have automatically (and appropriately) been set to hold mails when I go to Settings -> Message Acceptance -> "Default action to take when a *non-member* posts to the list" -- it says Hold for moderation"
That's for non-members, not for members. That does not apply to users which you have mass subscribed. For those there is the "Default action to take when a member posts to the list". That's the one Mark Sapiro mentioned.
Regards,
Gerald
On 18.11.24 10:59, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
Hi Mark,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 11/16/24 21:41, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
However, I've just done a test of a newly added user (a test email account for me), seen that the Moderation Action is None, but when I posted to the list from the address, it was not held for moderation, and went through. Am I missing something with the expected functionality? A member's moderation action of None means use the Default action to take when a member posts to the list. Is that set to Hold for moderation? Actually, it is good practice to set that to Hold for moderation for all lists or at least all those that don't require moderator approval for subscription to prevent a spammer from subscribing and spamming the list. Then, upon approving a member's post you can also set the member's moderation action to default processing and upon discarding a spammers post, you can also set the spammer's moderation action to Discard.
I agree. My point was that the list is set as default to hold for moderation. But, a new user who sends an email to the list, whose Moderation Action is set to "none", was able to email the list without the email being held for moderation. I would have expected based on the threads I quoted, that a user who is added to the list via Mass subscribe, would not be able to send to the list without it being held.
I'm happy to do more testing, provide other information/logs as desired if that would help?
cheers, Mark
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This message sent to vogt@spamcop.net
Hi Gerald,
For the list I am talking about:
- Default action to take when a member posts to the list is set to "Hold for moderation"
- Default action to take when a non-member posts to the list is set to "Hold for moderation"
- When I am viewing all users, the migrated ones are set to Moderation Action: "Hold for moderation". The mass-added ones post-migration are set to Moderation Action: "None"
- When a mass-added post-migration user sent an email to the list it passed through without being held.
I'd love for it to be a one-off or be shown that I did something wrong - unfortunately with over 200 people on the list in question I'd rather not subject them to repeated test emails.
Happy to check any logs if there might be something to hunt for.
cheers, Mark
On 11/18/24 04:12, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
For the list I am talking about:
- Default action to take when a member posts to the list is set to "Hold for moderation"
- Default action to take when a non-member posts to the list is set to "Hold for moderation"
- When I am viewing all users, the migrated ones are set to Moderation Action: "Hold for moderation". The mass-added ones post-migration are set to Moderation Action: "None"
- When a mass-added post-migration user sent an email to the list it passed through without being held.
This should not happen. In the message as delivered to the list what do you see in the X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: header and the X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: header if any?
Happy to check any logs if there might be something to hunt for.
What if anything is in the lists Accept these non-members setting?
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Once again, thanks for taking time to reply.
Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 11/18/24 04:12, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote: This should not happen. In the message as delivered to the list what do you see in the X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: header and the X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: header if any?
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.8
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address
X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: member-moderation
What if anything is in the lists Accept these non-members setting?
Default action to take when a member posts to the list: Hold for moderation Default action to take when a non-member posts to the list: Hold for moderation Emergency Moderation: No Accept these non-members: (none listed) Hold these non-members: (none listed)
If you would like me to enable debugging and do another test, I'm happy to. I will admit given the odd behaviour that there's a (small, unexpected) chance that there were settings changed or made during the process by another moderator, but that is not the belief at the moment.
cheers, Mark
On 11/18/24 16:54, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
Once again, thanks for taking time to reply.
Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 11/18/24 04:12, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote: This should not happen. In the message as delivered to the list what do you see in the X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: header and the X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: header if any?
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.8 X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: member-moderation
This says it was held for moderation. Is there an X-Mailman-Approved-At: header which would say it was approved by a moderator?
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 11/18/24 19:19, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
Mark Sapiro wrote:
This says it was held for moderation. Is there an X-Mailman-Approved-At: header which would say it was approved by a moderator?
No "X-Mailman-Approved-At" in the header. All the X-Mailman headers in the mail sent to the list were included in my previous reply.
The member moderation rule hit. This only happens if the sender is a
member and the member's moderation action is other than None or Defer or
the member's moderation action is None and the list's
default_member_action is other than Defer.
Once the rule has hit the message is accepted, held, discarded or rejected depending on the moderation action found above.
One caveat here is how the sender is determined, The sender is the
first address found in the From:, envelope sender, Reply-To: and Sender:
headers that is a list member. If the From: address is the member whose
moderation action is None than the list's default_member_action should
apply, but if the From: is not a member, you have to look at those other
addresses.
One possible way to avoid this issue, although it doesn't solve the mystery, is to set Emergency Moderation to Yes which should hold all posts regardless of sender.
To diagnose this further, can you create a test list, set Default action to take when a member posts to the list to Hold, mass subscribe an address and send a post from that address and see if it's held. It should be, and if it is, I think things are working as they should be and a test post to the original list from one of these mass subscribed members will be held.
If that is true, I can only think that at the time of that post, settings weren't as they are now.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mark Sapiro wrote:
To diagnose this further, can you create a test list, set Default action to take when a member posts to the list to Hold, mass subscribe an address and send a post from that address and see if it's held. It should be, and if it is, I think things are working as they should be and a test post to the original list from one of these mass subscribed members will be held.
I've done some testing as follows:
- Created a test list
- Migrated the existing list in question from its mm21 config.pck to the test list
- Changed the display name to avoid confusion :-)
- Checked moderator settings for the list:
- Default action to take when a member posts to the list: Hold for moderation
- Default action to take when a non-member posts to the list: Discard (no notification)
- Emergency moderation: No
- Accept/Hold/Reject/Discard non-members: all blank
- CSV exported the 247 existing list members
- Pasted all exported member addresses from the CSV into the mass removal web page, *except* for the list-owner. After doing so hoped that they didn't all get an unsubscribe mail. Given that "Send goodbye message" was set to yes, I suspect I did. :-\
- Confirmed List members only had the list owner
- Added a first new test user (me) via mass subscribe, ticked Pre confirm, Pre approved, Pre verified. Received welcome email
- Confirmed List members; list owner "Hold for moderation", test user "None"
- Added a second new test user (me with a second email address) via mass subscribe with same settings as above. Received welcome email
- Modified second test user to "Hold for moderation" in Members list. Noted the Moderation was set to "List default" before changing it to "Hold for moderation"
- Sent an email from test user 1 to the list
- Sent an email from test user 2 to the list
- Sent an email from a third email address that isn't on the list
- Looked at Held messages:
- test user 1 email was held for moderation in Web UI. User 1 received an email indicating as such.
- test user 2 email was held for moderation in Web UI. User 2 received an email indicating as such.
- non-member email was neither held for moderation, nor sent to the list.
If that is true, I can only think that at the time of that post, settings weren't as they are now.
I think for now I will have to assume that's the case, until the next email can be readied against the proper list. If you hear nothing further, assume that this was all based on some random quirk (by humans or machines). I'll update if it happens again.
Cheers, Mark
On 11/18/24 23:13, mark@suburbia.org.au wrote:
- Modified second test user to "Hold for moderation" in Members list. Noted the Moderation was set to "List default" before changing it to "Hold for moderation"
The actual value is None, but Postorius displays/sets that as List default.
If that is true, I can only think that at the time of that post, settings weren't as they are now.
I think for now I will have to assume that's the case, until the next email can be readied against the proper list. If you hear nothing further, assume that this was all based on some random quirk (by humans or machines). I'll update if it happens again.
Thank you for doing the test.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (3)
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Gerald Vogt -
Mark Sapiro -
mark＠suburbia.org.au