Thank you Mark. I will need to find time tomorrow to create two totally new email accounts that I can use in tests so I do not inadvertently sign up again with the same address. Also will double check my settings.

Best regards

Paul

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2019, at 14:39, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:

...

On 9/16/19 9:22 PM, Paul Arenson wrote: In my test of the two forms of signup, I am getting these unexpected results. Is it my settings or is something weird within the program itself?

1. https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress...

2. Choose "You can also subscribe without creating an account. If you wish to do so, please use the form below"

3. Then I have to approve it. They get "Welcome to the "Discuss" mailing list! To post to this list, send your email to: discuss@list.tokyoprogressive.org

You have to approve it or the user has to confirm her email address? Maybe you have to approve it because the lists Subscription Policy is Moderate.

...

4. But I have to approve it.I assume this is because they do not yet have a real account. And they should be listed as a NON MEMBER?

No. They will be a member, they just will not have a Django account that they can log in to.

...

5. But even when they sign up here: https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/accounts/signup/?next=%2Fpostorius%2Flists... they get an email from my provider (NOT MY LIST????) as follows:

"Hello from mailman3.emwd.com! You're receiving this e-mail because user iCloud has given yours as an e-mail address to connect their account. To confirm this is correct, go to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/accounts/confirm-email/MTE3:1iA44k:E7w7xhy... Thank you from mailman3.emwd.com! mailman3.emwd.com"

Because when you create a Django account, you have to confirm your email address.

...

6. And this is where it gets weird. If they send from their email program and get the welcome (Welcome to the "Discuss" mailing list! To post to this list, send your email to: discuss@list.tokyoprogressive.org You can unsubscribe or make adjustments to your options via email by sending a message to....... I then get a notice:

"Your mail to 'discuss@list.tokyoprogressive.org' with the subject test notice Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The message is being held because: The message is not from a list member"

What is Message Acceptance -> Default action to take when a member posts to the list ?

You get the notice or the user gets the notice?

...

7. While if they send FROM THE interface it goes through.

8. What I am confused about.

Signing up for an account should make them a member, right? Subscribing should make them a non member, no?

Signing up for an account is just signing up for a Django account. You can sign up for an account and log in and then subscribe to the list.

Subscribing makes one a member whether or not you subscribe from a logged in account or subscribe without creating an account.

...

But here it seems that both make them a non member.

If an address which is not a member posts to the list, that address becomes a non-member. This is the only way other than being explicitly added by an admin that an address becomes a non-member.

...

And worse, someone with an account sending from the Interface has their message get through while the same person sending from an email program has me get a notice that a non member is trying to post.

If by sending from the interface, you mean posting via hyperkitty, the user must have an account and be logged in to do that.

Your "same person" may have multiple entities within Mailman, possibly subtly different email addresses, one of which is a member and one of which isn't.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

---

Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/

On 9/17/19 6:39 PM, paul@arenson.org wrote:

A) Thoughts before summarizing tests.

1. I had originally thought of making archives only for subscribers to give them the benefit of posting from the archives directly and being able to find stuff more like a forum (email is always hard to follow).

Anyone logged in to an account can post from Hyperkitty. Their post is treated the same as if they posted by email.

2. But in retrospect it seems people can get an idea what the list is about from free access. So that is now what I have.

OK

3. On the other hand, it is a bit confusing that a non member can post from the archives without realizing that they need to register, with my settings I can moderate and decide if I want to add him or her to the list based on whether that is spam or not. So ok.

A non-member is a non-member. A post from a non-member is handled according to "Default action to take when a non-member posts to the list" unless that non-member has a Moderation action other than List Default.

B) THE TESTS I was testing too many variables so, to simplify things, I made my settings as follows

1. Subscription—> Confirm

2. Message Acceptance—> Default processing (so only members may post)

3. Testing Procesure I added people three ways—> To do that I created 3 unique addresses to see if they can send and receive by email.

3a) subscribe without creating an account—from here (bottom) https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress...

3b) Subscription / Unsubscription from same page, navigate to Login and again navigate to signup Comment 1: Confusing because even after creating an account, they are not subscribed to the list. Maybe it makes sense if a person has many lists, but I only have this one. It does not say clearly that one has to subscribe after creating an account.

I understand it's not totally explicit, but it says "To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list, please log in first. If you have not previously logged in, you may need to set up an account with the appropriate email address." To me the implication is once you have created an account, you have to come back, log in and subscribe.

What do you want it to say?

Comment 2: The other thing is that it does not show my domain but that of mailman3.emwd.com <http://mailman3.emwd.com/>.

Talk to Brian (emwd)

3c) Mass Subscribe by me. Which is what I intend for my 600 users from another list company. Comment This worked fine.

C) Summary

1. I have been thinking of having an account as a good way to get users used to using the archives as a way to confirm current and past topics (as opposed to keeping track by email. But it seems I need to tell them to BOTH subscribe AND create an account. Am I thinking about it the wrong way?

That's correct. They need an account and they need to subscribe that account to the list.

2. When a person wants to unsubscribe, they go to discuss-request@list.tokyoprogressive.org <mailto:discuss-request@list.tokyoprogressive.org> with subject bline help.

a) Isn’t there a better way to unsubscribe by email?

email to discuss-leave@list.tokyoprogressive.org (or discuss-unsubscribe@list.tokyoprogressive.org)

Or you can login, go to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress... and click the big red unsubscribe button.

b) And how about a way to remove their account itself?

Log in and click the dropdown at the upper right, select Account and click the Delete Account tab or go directly to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/user-profile/ and click the Delete Account tab or go directly to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/user-profile/delete

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

And the to clarify my problems with the signup procedure and how I might deal with it. (Mostly a very small change on your part and an explanation on my website for my users)

"I understand it's not totally explicit, but it says 'To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list, please log in first. If you have not previously logged in, you may need to set up an account with the appropriate email address.’ To me the implication is once you have created an account, you have to come back, log in and subscribe. What do you want it to say?"

I had to test to find out that there is not a lot I would change. Let me just preface it by sharing my experience. As a person with learning disabilities (following instructions is the hardest), I found the procedures dating when using a few pretend signups.

This brings me back to a job I had in the 80s and 90s. When I was working on user manual for Seiko watches, the engineers wrote the manuals in Japanese-Engllish based on what the watches could do. But I put myself in the place of the user, who often did not know why they needed that function. And so I had to translate into an English explanation started from the point of view of what they might want to do with the watch.

In the case of Mailman 3 much depends on the individual list and its settings, so my conclusion is it is mostly on me. With just a suggestion that you have a SIGN UP blue button to make things less confusing and not necessitating multiple clicking.

The main obstacle I found was I had my list settings as NO to "Choose whether to include this list on the list of all lists". Changing this to "Yes" made it a little easier.

Here are my two tests and conclusion.

2. TEST 1

Sign up first... https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress... ...you will find that if I have said NO on "Choose whether to include this list on the list of all lists” you will find it hard to go back to the subscribe page. Unless you backspace. Or paste the address again. Not ideal

QUESTIONS: Am I missing something? By not having my discussion listed, people cannot find it to subscribe.

Or is NOT LISTED better where I add people manually to subscribe and then tell them to sign up?

3. TEST 2

One solution is I could put the list back on the host’s list of lists back and tell people to click on Discuss.

That is what I did for now. Then it is rather smooth. I could tell my users (especially ones from previous company’s mailing list who want to interact with the hyperkitty site)

to CLICK LOGIN CLICK SIGNIN then follow all these steps:

Verify

Confirm

Get taken to sign in page

Click Discuss

Subscribe

Click Archives

Or I could leave it as it is and tell people to backspace until they find the signup page and then subscribe.

Or tell them to copy and paste https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress...

or https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/accounts/signup/ in the same browser window and then subscribe.

CONCLUSION and SUGGESTION—> WHY NOT HAVE A SEPARATE BLUE BUTTON TO SIGN UP TO AVOID THE CONFUSING clicking twice?

IS THIS THE ANSWER?—

Tell my users as follows on a WORDPRESS PAGE as follows:

Greetings. If you have never signed up before, follow instructions A. If you are coming from the previous dadamail list, follow instructions B

INSTRUCTIONS A Steps 1-3 to get on the mailing list and be able to post from your email account. Continue to steps 4 and 5 if you want to see the archives and post from that page. (Note to Mark: I have turned the archives off by default to make it more of a no brainer to want to sign up)

INSTRUCTIONS B You are already registered, you will continue to get messages and be able to send to the list. If you want to keep using the same email address you are all set and do not need to do anything.

If you want to keep using the same address, but also be able to access the archives, follow steps 4 and 5 only.

If you want to register a new address, follow steps 1-5 below.

1. Go here https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress... Add your email address at the BOTTOM of the page. Name is optional.

2. Then wait for email to reply to come.

3. That’s it. You can stop here. However, you can sign up to the archives which makes this list more of a forum to see at a glance old conversations. And you can also post from it. To do so, continue to steps 4 and 5,

4. Right on the same page, you can sign up and sign in by clicking log in and then sign up and then follow the same procedure as above. (Mark, SEE SUGGESTION FOR A BLUE SIGN UP BUTTON).

5. Once you have signed up, you can log in to access the archives and web posting.

Hope the above long winded post was clear. Feel like I am sseing the lite.

On 9/18/19 11:13 PM, Paul Arenson wrote:

Thank you Mark. I appreciate the response. Let me respond in two messages. The first is to confirm the rules for signing off for both types of used:

The second is to clarify my problems with the signup procedure and how I might deal with it. (Mostly a very small change on your part and an explanation on my website for my users)

1. So, for both subscribers vi postorius only and hyperkitty users: email to discuss-leave@list.tokyoprogressive.org (or discuss-unsubscribe@list.tokyoprogressive.org)

Yes, but you seem to have some confusion about how things work.

Mailman 3 consists of several pieces. See <https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/introduction.html#mailman-the-gnu-mailing-list-management-system>.

As it says there, Postorius and HyperKitty are separate, web based applications for list management and archiving respectively. Both of these are Django projects - Django is a Python web framework.

What you refer to as hyperkitty users are actually Django Users. When you create and account and/or log in at Postorius or HyperKitty, you are creating/logging in to a Django account.

When you are logged in, Django, and thus Postorius and HyperKitty know who you are. If you aren't logged in, they don't.

2. Only for hyperkitty users, you can login, go to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/postorius/lists/discuss.list.tokyoprogress... and click the big red unsubscribe button.

You need to be logged in for this so Postorius knows who to unsubscribe.

3. Also only for hyperkitty users, log in and click the dropdown at the upper right, select Account and click the Delete Account tab or go directly to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/user-profile/ and click the Delete Account tab or go directly to https://list.tokyoprogressive.org/user-profile/delete

This deletes your Django account, but does not affect your list memberships.

(Guessing that #3 will not unsubscribe the person and--if they have already done 1 or 2, failing to do number 3 is not going to be a big problem. Am I right?)

That's right.

The important thing is Postorius itself knows nothing about lists or list settings or list members. It gets and/or sets this information by communicating with Mailman core. You saw an example of this when you changed an archive from public to private. Postorius told Core to make it private and Postorius would then tell you it was private because it would get that information from Core. But, it required a daily cron job to propagate that setting to HyperKitty, so HyperKitty didn't get the memo until later.

I hope this helps rather than adding confusion.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan