Dear Mailman 3 users,
Currently we are hosting the website [1] and mailing list [2] of our free software project with a shared hosting plan of a webhosting company. As such there is no dedicated server, but we do have SSH access (as a regular user) to the shared server. The mailing list software (Mailman 2) is administrated separately by our hoster on a dedicated machine. We are rather happy with this setup: we pay about 10 USD per month and have only little administration work to do.
The only problem is that our list runs on Mailman 2. We would like to move to Mailman 3, but this does not seem to be that simple. Perhaps someone here would be so kind to give us advice?
The number of (shared) hosters who offer Mailman 3 seems to be very limited [3]. Would it be a good idea to book a virtual private server (VPS) somewhere, that runs, say, Debian, and simply install Mailman 3 through the distribution’s package system? I’m already running a small personal box with nginx on it, and this is very little work, but running Mailman would require sending out up to a few thousand email messages per day (our list has a few hundred subscribers). Is this something that one is commonly allowed to do on a VPS system? Most VPS offers that I see are silent about mail.
If we setup such a system, can we assume that it will silently operate without causing much administration work most of the time (like my nginx server)? Or is maintaining a Mailman 3 server a significant burden ([2] seems to imply that)? If yes, are you aware of organizations that propose Mailman 3 hosting for open source projects? Python.org seems to host some lists for third party projects, but otherwise I haven’t seen much.
Thanks Christoph
[1] https://kwant-project.org/ [2] https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/kwant-discuss [3] https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/Q...
On 2/13/20 2:02 PM, Christoph Groth wrote:
The only problem is that our list runs on Mailman 2. We would like to move to Mailman 3, but this does not seem to be that simple. Perhaps someone here would be so kind to give us advice?
I think it's pretty simple, but I've been a Mailman developer for 15 years ;)
The number of (shared) hosters who offer Mailman 3 seems to be very limited [3]. Would it be a good idea to book a virtual private server (VPS) somewhere, that runs, say, Debian, and simply install Mailman 3 through the distribution’s package system? I’m already running a small personal box with nginx on it, and this is very little work, but running Mailman would require sending out up to a few thousand email messages per day (our list has a few hundred subscribers). Is this something that one is commonly allowed to do on a VPS system? Most VPS offers that I see are silent about mail.
This list is on a VPS hosted by RackSpace. mail.python.org which hosts hundreds of lists is a VPS hosted by DigitalOcean, and my bicycling club's web site, email and mailing lists are on a VPS also hosted by DigitalOcean. These servers all run some version of Ubuntu, but because we are developers, they do not use the Debian/Ubuntu packages. They are all installed from the heads of the GitLab branches and kept pretty much up to date with those.
All three servers use Postfix as an MTA. We have no issues with mail volume per se. What you will see with a new VPS is your IP being blocked by various ISPs. It takes a bit of communication and patience to work through these blocks, but once you develop a good reputation, they tend to go away.
If we setup such a system, can we assume that it will silently operate without causing much administration work most of the time (like my nginx server)? Or is maintaining a Mailman 3 server a significant burden ([2]
[2], or [3]?
seems to imply that)? If yes, are you aware of organizations that propose Mailman 3 hosting for open source projects? Python.org seems to host some lists for third party projects, but otherwise I haven’t seen much.
I don't think a Mailman 3 installation needs an undue amount of baby sitting. I do run daily reports that list the contents of mailman's queues (normally empty, but messages in the shunt queue need investigation) and grep a couple of logs for errors.
mail.python.org hosts lists for Python related open source projects. Kwant seems to be eligible. Ask postmaster@python.org specifying the desired list name and name and email address of the initial list owner(s). However, we don't normally import lists or archives from elsewhere.
[1] https://kwant-project.org/ [2] https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/kwant-discuss [3] https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/Q...
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hello Christoph,
If we setup such a system, can we assume that it will silently operate without causing much administration work most of the time (like my nginx server)? Or is maintaining a Mailman 3 server a significant burden? As with all things, it is easy once you've mastered it, and easy for someone who /has/ mastered it to say it's easy :P
It's an interesting technical challenge, but please bear in mind that you'll need to gain a reasonable level of expertise not only in configuring, deploying and maintaining Mailman3, but also the associated MTA (usually postfix) with (very probably) a SPAM filter hooked up to it. And, of course, both Django-based WebUI projects for administering (Postorius) and archiving (Hyperkitty), with associated HTTP servers and DBMSs.
The (almost-)complete list of software you'll need be familiar with to achieve any reasonable degree of success is:
- An HTTP server with WSGI backend (*Apache2 / Nginx, mod_wsgi / uwsgi*)
- An MTA for reception and sending of messages (*Postfix*)
- (Optionally) an anti-spam & DKIM-signing solution (*rspamd / amavis*)
- The *Django* Python web framework - deploying *Postorius* + *Hyperkitty* does require some TLC on this front. Familiarity deploying Django-based projects helps /immensely/.
- *MySQL / PostgreSQL* / any other supported DBMS - for the aforementioned Web UIs.
- Assorted knowledge of how email servers interoperate, in particular setting up FCrDNS, SPF records for better deliverability, possibly an understanding of DMARC/DKIM in case things ever go wrong (spoiler: yahoo does /not/ play nice with mailing lists ever since they published their DMARC policies...)
- And, of course, general SysAdmin knowledge to install the OS, set up SysV/Systemd units so everything starts up smoothly after a reboot, probably a monitoring system to get alerts & insights in case something goes wrong, etc.
The only problem is that our list runs on Mailman 2. We would like to move to Mailman 3 Why? Is there any feature you're missing in Mailman2 that Mailman3 has? If your Mailman2 installation "just works" and serves all of your needs, my advice would be to /keep it/. It's an old warhorse, but works reliably, and is maintained (so long as your hosting provider actually bothers to maintain it up-to-date, of course). E-mail technology is ancient; one hardly needs the latest version of /anything/ that is based around e-mail.
If your current ISP offers a decent service and you're happy with them, I'd definitely stay. Especially if you don't have a dedicated sysadmin profile in your project's team.
are you aware of organizations that propose Mailman 3 hosting for open source projects? If you're based in Europe, I can offer a few recommendations. I'm not comfortable with posting specific names on a public mailing list (that's tantamount to self-advertising), but feel free to ask by private reply. Regards, Daniel
Daniel Armengod writes:
Hello Christoph,
If we setup such a system, can we assume that it will silently operate without causing much administration work most of the time (like my nginx server)? Or is maintaining a Mailman 3 server a significant burden?
As with all things, it is easy once you've mastered it, and easy for someone who /has/ mastered it to say it's easy :P
A Mailman 3 server isn't hard to manage. It's the rest of the system that provides most of the challenges ;-) (including the challenges in configuring Mailman!) You can get pretty close to a turnkey system by using one of the Mailman containers Abhilash provides, but then you need to run Docker, and that's probably going to increase the spec of the hardware you need.
Mailman 2 is much more self-contained than Mailman 3. You still need an MTA and a webserver that provides CGI, but that's all.
The only problem is that our list runs on Mailman 2. We would like to move to Mailman 3
Why?
I'll echo this. We don't need to know (unless there's a specific technical challenge to Mailman 2 that you hope Mailman 3 can resolve, and then we can tell you whether Mailman 3 has it, will have it soon, or won't have it soon if ever), and don't really care (happy to help and all that). But you need to ask yourself that question because it's rarely a good idea to fix what ain't broke. And Mailman 3 is sure to become more robust, easier to install, and easier to migrate Mailman 2 lists over time. Don't do it until you forsee a near- future *need* to migrate, is my advice.
If you're worried about Python 2's "end of life," especially about lack of security maintenance going forward, I wouldn't worry about that. Python 2.7 is a very robust, resilient, and secure in its internal operation. It's very unlikely that a Python-2-specific bug in a Mailman installation is how an attacker gets in. It's not going to need much maintenance.
As a whole, Daniel's advice is excellent and worth studying.
Steve
Daniel Armengod writes:
I'm not comfortable with posting specific names on a public mailing list (that's tantamount to self-advertising),
Your comfort level is up to you, and being reticent until you've established a strong record as a good Mailman citizen is the way I'd do it. :-) However, we've long been comfortable with minimalist self- advertising (ie, a one-liner of "I provide hosting services including Mailman at X Co." or "I recommend X Co, who I consult for") on list when somebody asks (especially in combination with a long helpful post ;-)
And we also have pages on the wiki explicitly for Mailman service providers and consultants. I don't think it's a good idea for third parties to list others there, but feel free to tell anyone you would recommend to potential clients to come to us to get listed (you need an account on the wiki to post there).
Steve
On Feb 20, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp wrote:
The only problem is that our list runs on Mailman 2. We would like to move to Mailman 3
Why?
I'll echo this. We don't need to know (unless there's a specific technical challenge to Mailman 2 that you hope Mailman 3 can resolve, and then we can tell you whether Mailman 3 has it, will have it soon, or won't have it soon if ever), and don't really care (happy to help and all that). But you need to ask yourself that question because it's rarely a good idea to fix what ain't broke. And Mailman 3 is sure to become more robust, easier to install, and easier to migrate Mailman 2 lists over time. Don't do it until you forsee a near- future *need* to migrate, is my advice.
I’ll weigh in here. In my case, I moved an almost 20 year old MM2 installation to MM3 primarily to get archiving that actually worked well. The poor searching of the list archives was easily the #1 complaint I got about my mailing list.
MM3 is awesome. Finicky to get running, but awesome.
- Mark
mark@pdc-racing.net | 408-348-2878
Ditto. I very much like the MM3 archives. The archives in MM2 were very hard to use. MM3 has better DMARC support as well, and members have better control of their subscriptions on a multi-list server (I maintain some 50 lists and many of the members are on multiple lists).
MM3 is in need of more work and it appears to be happening, but it’s a very good package already, well worth it.
Yours,
Allan Hansen hansen@rc.org
On Feb 20, 2020, at 10:17 , Mark Dadgar mark@pdc-racing.net wrote:
On Feb 20, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp wrote:
The only problem is that our list runs on Mailman 2. We would like to move to Mailman 3
Why?
I'll echo this. We don't need to know (unless there's a specific technical challenge to Mailman 2 that you hope Mailman 3 can resolve, and then we can tell you whether Mailman 3 has it, will have it soon, or won't have it soon if ever), and don't really care (happy to help and all that). But you need to ask yourself that question because it's rarely a good idea to fix what ain't broke. And Mailman 3 is sure to become more robust, easier to install, and easier to migrate Mailman 2 lists over time. Don't do it until you forsee a near- future *need* to migrate, is my advice.
I’ll weigh in here. In my case, I moved an almost 20 year old MM2 installation to MM3 primarily to get archiving that actually worked well. The poor searching of the list archives was easily the #1 complaint I got about my mailing list.
MM3 is awesome. Finicky to get running, but awesome.
- Mark
mark@pdc-racing.net | 408-348-2878
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participants (6)
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Allan Hansen -
Christoph Groth -
Daniel Armengod -
Mark Dadgar -
Mark Sapiro -
Stephen J. Turnbull