Gmail problems?

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Stephen Daniel

22 Apr 2023 22 Apr '23

3:02 p.m.

Mailman Gurus --

I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

-- Steve

Show replies by date

Dave McGuire

22 Apr 22 Apr

5:19 p.m.

On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...

I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse over time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google. It does nothing.

It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too, so they can data-mine it and make even more money.

By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for the most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"

It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and there doesn't appear that anything can be done.

            -Dave

-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

Stephen Daniel

5:25 p.m.

Thanks.

My email kinda does originate from their servers, in that my SMTP relay is smtp-relay.gmail.com.

For now, explicit whitelisting appears to help, I just have to do a lot of hand holding with each user to get it set up. And, most of the users seem to think this is my problem / my fault / my responsibility to fix.

Sigh.

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 1:19 PM Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com wrote:

...

On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse over time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google. It does nothing.

It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too, so they can data-mine it and make even more money.

By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for the most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"

It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and there doesn't appear that anything can be done.
            -Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/ Archived at: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/message/...

This message sent to swd@pobox.com

Andrew Hodgson

8:23 p.m.

Hi.

By far and large this is the most admin I have to do with my Mailman lists. I don't know if its we don't send enough traffic or they are using private blacklists, but nearly all the list mail ends up in my junkmail folder using Office365. It’s a similar story for Google as well. I did think some time ago about paying for one of those spam services and sending my outbound mail through it, but the discussion here about using Google's relays not making a difference makes me think its not worth bothering with. In the heyday of my lists in 2020 I was sending over 5000 individual messages a day and didn't have this problem. That has dropped now to maybe a couple of hundred a week and it’s a real issue.

Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Stephen Daniel swd@pobox.com Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2023 6:25 PM To: Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com Cc: mailman-users@mailman3.org Subject: [MM3-users] Re: Gmail problems?

Thanks.

My email kinda does originate from their servers, in that my SMTP relay is smtp-relay.gmail.com.

Sigh.

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 1:19 PM Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com wrote:

...

On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse over time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google.
It does nothing.

It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too, so they can data-mine it and make even more money.

By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for the most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"

It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and there doesn't appear that anything can be done.
            -Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/ Archived at: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/me ssage/CIC6JI5JRG7UXTBVIHNF4CXBC7IBYZRP/

This message sent to swd@pobox.com

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This message sent to andrew@hodgson.io

Odhiambo Washington

23 Apr 23 Apr

7:51 a.m.

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 8:19 PM Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com wrote:

...

On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse over time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google. It does nothing.

It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too, so they can data-mine it and make even more money.

By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for the most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"

It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and there doesn't appear that anything can be done.

This isn't necessarily true, from my experience. I had troubles with Yahoo and its affiliates and even 'suggested' to my members to ditch Yahoo for Gmail. [10:46 mm ]$ cat mylistmembers.txt | grep "gmail.com" | wc -l 849 I have that many subscribers using gmail.com and I don't have any problems with Gmail. I have all my SPF|DKIM|DMARC records properly set and yes, I also have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :-) [How to ask smart questions: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]

Dave McGuire

3:01 p.m.

On 4/23/23 03:51, Odhiambo Washington wrote:

...

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 8:19 PM Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com wrote:

...
On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?
This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse over
time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google. It does nothing.
It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too,
so they can data-mine it and make even more money.
By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for the
most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"
It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and
there doesn't appear that anything can be done.
This isn't necessarily true, from my experience. I had troubles with Yahoo and its affiliates and even 'suggested' to my members to ditch Yahoo for Gmail. [10:46 mm ]$ cat mylistmembers.txt | grep "gmail.com" | wc -l 849 I have that many subscribers using gmail.com and I don't have any problems with Gmail. I have all my SPF|DKIM|DMARC records properly set and yes, I also have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

I was speaking of the general case of "getting non-Google-origin email into gmail", not "mailing lists with gmail". The problems are widespread and well-known.

           -Dave

-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

Odhiambo Washington

3:19 p.m.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 6:01 PM Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com wrote:

...

...
On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 8:19 PM Dave McGuire mcguire@neurotica.com wrote:

...
On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?
This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse
over time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google. It does nothing.
It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too,
so they can data-mine it and make even more money.
By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for
...
...
most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"
It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and
there doesn't appear that anything can be done.
This isn't necessarily true, from my experience. I had troubles with Yahoo and its affiliates and even 'suggested' to my members to ditch Yahoo for Gmail. [10:46 mm ]$ cat mylistmembers.txt | grep "gmail.com" | wc -l 849 I have that many subscribers using gmail.com and I don't have any
On 4/23/23 03:51, Odhiambo Washington wrote: the problems

...
with Gmail. I have all my SPF|DKIM|DMARC records properly set and yes, I also have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

I was speaking of the general case of "getting non-Google-origin email into gmail", not "mailing lists with gmail". The problems are widespread and well-known.

I am sorry I am not aware. I haven't seen that being discussed in mailop ( mailop@mailop.org) which is my main source. I have also setup several mail servers and I haven't had any issue delivering to Gmail.

Allan Hansen

3:33 p.m.

I have found that when a user is subscribed with a non-Google address and has a setup that sends incoming email to a Google address, then Google will bounce the message due to DKIM errors and the non-Google address will eventually get disabled.

To fix this I tell my users that they need to subscribe with their Google address if that's where the messages eventually end up. When they do, they no longer have issues.

It did take us some time this winter, though, to get our DKIM records into a state that Google would accept, but it's now working OK.

Yours,

Allan

On 4/23/23, 08:21, "Odhiambo Washington" mailto:odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 6:01 PM Dave McGuire mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com> wrote:

...

...
On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 8:19 PM Dave McGuire mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com> wrote:

...
On 4/22/23 11:02, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

This started a couple of years ago, and it has become much worse over time. It's not just lists, it's any email that originates from a server that isn't Google's. Even servers with sterling reputations, and ones which have gone through the BS of "registering" with Google. It does nothing.

It's a not-so-subtle hint that Google wants to handle YOUR mail too, so they can data-mine it and make even more money.

By and large, gmail users are blissfully ignorant of this and for

...
...
most part don't seem to care. All they know is they don't see much spam. You get blank stares when you tell them about this and explain to them that if they receive a service for free, THEY are the product. "But it's eeeeaaaaasier!"

It's disgusting, Google ignores any attempt at communication, and there doesn't appear that anything can be done.

This isn't necessarily true, from my experience. I had troubles with Yahoo and its affiliates and even 'suggested' to my members to ditch Yahoo for Gmail. [10:46 mm ]$ cat mylistmembers.txt | grep "gmail.com" | wc -l 849 I have that many subscribers using gmail.com and I don't have any

On 4/23/23 03:51, Odhiambo Washington wrote: the problems

...
with Gmail. I have all my SPF|DKIM|DMARC records properly set and yes, I also have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

I was speaking of the general case of "getting non-Google-origin email into gmail", not "mailing lists with gmail". The problems are widespread and well-known.

I am sorry I am not aware. I haven't seen that being discussed in mailop ( mailop@mailop.org mailto:mailop@mailop.org) which is my main source. I have also setup several mail servers and I haven't had any issue delivering to Gmail.

Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org mailto:mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org mailto:mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/ https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/ Archived at: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org mailto:mailman-users@mailman3.org/message/OYGV7BTRRNF764YYGJH3AC36ASS2QMOR/

This message sent to hansen@rc.org mailto:hansen@rc.org

Roland Miyamoto

3:58 p.m.

Dear Allan,

On 23/04/2023 17:33, Allan Hansen wrote:

...

It did take us some time this winter, though, to get our DKIM records into a state that Google would accept, but it's now working OK. Would you mind posting your SPF, DMARC and DKIM (not the whole key, of course) records here, for the sake of a comparison with my own?

Mine look like this

list.mydomain.tld mail is handled by 10 mail.mydomain.tld

list.mydomain.tld descriptive text "v=spf1 mx -all"

_dmarc.list.mydomain.tld descriptive text "v=DMARC1; p=reject; ruf=mailto:postmaster@mydomain.tld"

202205._domainkey.list.mydomain.tld descriptive text "v=DKIM1; h=sha256; k=rsa; s=email; p=MIIBI..."

Best wishes, Roland

Stephen Daniel

5:16 p.m.

Roland --

Most of this means very little to me. Is there somewhere I can go to read about these DNS records? My email comes from/to mydomain.tld. I assume therefore I don't use the "list." prefix you use.

-- Steve

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 1:11 PM Roland Miyamoto via Mailman-users < mailman-users@mailman3.org> wrote:

...

Dear Allan,

On 23/04/2023 17:33, Allan Hansen wrote:

...
It did take us some time this winter, though, to get our DKIM records into a state that Google would accept, but it's now working OK. Would you mind posting your SPF, DMARC and DKIM (not the whole key, of course) records here, for the sake of a comparison with my own?

Mine look like this

list.mydomain.tld mail is handled by 10 mail.mydomain.tld

list.mydomain.tld descriptive text "v=spf1 mx -all"

_dmarc.list.mydomain.tld descriptive text "v=DMARC1; p=reject; ruf=mailto:postmaster@mydomain.tld"

202205._domainkey.list.mydomain.tld descriptive text "v=DKIM1; h=sha256; k=rsa; s=email; p=MIIBI..."

Best wishes, Roland

Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/ Archived at: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/message/...

This message sent to swd@pobox.com

Roland Miyamoto

6:32 p.m.

Hi Stephen.

On 23/04/2023 19:16, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...

Most of this means very little to me. Is there somewhere I can go to read about these DNS records?

SPF and DMARC records

https://www.spf-record.de/

https://www.dmarc-record.de/

are fairly easy to set up.

DKIM is more difficult

https://tecadmin.net/setup-dkim-with-postfix-on-ubuntu-debian https://easydmarc.com/blog/how-to-configure-dkim-opendkim-with-postfix

because you have to generate a private/public key pair, publish the public one in a DNS TXT record for YYYYMM._domainkey.fullyqualified.domainname.tld and then teach your Mail Service (say postfix) how to sign each message that it sends out with the private key which is secretly stored on your server.

Best wishes, Roland

Odhiambo Washington

24 Apr 24 Apr

7:55 a.m.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 9:33 PM Roland Miyamoto via Mailman-users < mailman-users@mailman3.org> wrote:

...

Hi Stephen.

On 23/04/2023 19:16, Stephen Daniel wrote:

...
Most of this means very little to me. Is there somewhere I can go to read about these DNS records?

SPF and DMARC records

https://www.spf-record.de/

https://www.dmarc-record.de/

are fairly easy to set up.

DKIM is more difficult

There is nothing difficult with it. There are online tools that you can use to generate those keys. Those tools also guide you on what records you need to publish on DNS. Go to https://easydmarc.com/tools, the point to "Platform". You will get tools to generate the records/keys and tools to check the records once you've published them and configured your MTA.

...

https://tecadmin.net/setup-dkim-with-postfix-on-ubuntu-debian https://easydmarc.com/blog/how-to-configure-dkim-opendkim-with-postfix

because you have to generate a private/public key pair, publish the public one in a DNS TXT record for YYYYMM._domainkey.fullyqualified.domainname.tld and then teach your Mail Service (say postfix) how to sign each message that it sends out with the private key which is secretly stored on your server.

Correctly configuring the MTA is the difficult part. However, the documentation is already shown in those two links.

Odhiambo Washington

7:58 a.m.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 8:17 PM Stephen Daniel swd@pobox.com wrote:

...

Roland --

Most of this means very little to me. Is there somewhere I can go to read about these DNS records? My email comes from/to mydomain.tld. I assume therefore I don't use the "list." prefix you use.

-- Steve

list.mailman3.org and list.mydomain.tld will NEVER have any relation at any point so you are free to use any subdomain. It's not a prefix, IMHO. It's a subdomain.

Mark Sapiro

2:11 p.m.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 8:17 PM Stephen Daniel swd@pobox.com wrote:

...

My email comes from/to mydomain.tld. I assume therefore I don't use the "list." prefix you use.

That's correct. You use the domain name that your mail server uses for its envelope from.

-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

Danil Smirnov

23 Apr 23 Apr

7:40 a.m.

Hi Steve,

Have you checked "Show original" page in Gmail for the messages coming from the list? Does it have SPF, DKIM, and DMARC checks all "PASS"?

Have you checked if your mailing list server IP hasn't been caught by some anti-spam blacklist?

I wouldn't consider the Promotions folder as the issue at all... It is not a punishment, just an imprecise classification caused by the message content most probably.

With my best regards, Danil Smirnov Mailman3.com

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 6:03 PM Stephen Daniel swd@pobox.com wrote:

...

Mailman Gurus --

I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

-- Steve

Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/ Archived at: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/message/...

This message sent to danil@smirnov.la

Stephen Daniel

5:12 p.m.

Danil --

I've learned something today. I did not know you could check the authentication.

When I check a message that I received from the list I am told: ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; mx.google.com; dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@bellsouth.net header.s=s2048 header.b=nkq1aBRe; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (...

I also see this: ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; pb-mx22.pobox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=fail (message has been altered, 2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=bellsouth.net header.i=@bellsouth.net header.b=nkq1aBRe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s2048 x-bits=2048; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none

How do I fix this DKIM error? Has the body changed because I add a footer to emails as they pass through?

Note that bellsouth.net is the original sender's email domain.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Danil Smirnov danil@smirnov.la wrote:

...

Hi Steve,

Have you checked "Show original" page in Gmail for the messages coming from the list? Does it have SPF, DKIM, and DMARC checks all "PASS"?

Have you checked if your mailing list server IP hasn't been caught by some anti-spam blacklist?

I wouldn't consider the Promotions folder as the issue at all... It is not a punishment, just an imprecise classification caused by the message content most probably.

With my best regards, Danil Smirnov Mailman3.com

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 6:03 PM Stephen Daniel swd@pobox.com wrote:

...
Mailman Gurus --

I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

I'm trying to teach my users to whitelist the list domain, but they are not, in general, a tech-savvy bunch, so it is slow going.

Anyone else suddenly having trouble with gmail? Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

-- Steve

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turnbull

5:39 p.m.

2023-04-24 02:12 に Stephen Daniel さんは書きました:

...

When I check a message that I received from the list I am told: ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; mx.google.com; dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@bellsouth.net header.s=s2048 header.b=nkq1aBRe;

This DKIM failure is normal. To get the body hash to verify, you need to set the body header and body footer to empty (beware, you can't see whitespace, but if there's whitespace, it's not *empty*). The header usually is empty, but by default we do set the footer, so you'd have to clean that out. Of course, if you have legal or organizational requirements to set the footer or header, you're stuck.

...

   arc=pass (i=1);

ARC is a protocol designed for mailing lists and other intermediaries that may change messages in ways that invalidate cryptographic signatures. It works by having each host that may munge messages (1) check all the previous ARC authentication results and (2) providing its own signature on those results if the most recent one is authentic and validates. (This is like a hash chain such as in git.)

...

   spf=pass (...
I also see this: ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; pb-mx22.pobox.com; arc=none (no signatures found);

This says that at the first ARC host in the path no ARC headers were found. Of course not, there were no previous participating hosts.

...

bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass);
dkim=fail (message has been altered, 2048-bit rsa key sha256)

Note it has already failed DKIM here. This says that some domain (presumably the one providing the Mailman host) (a) altered the message, invalidating the DKIM signature, and (b) based on arc=none above, does not participate in ARC.

...

header.d=bellsouth.net header.i=@bellsouth.net header.b=nkq1aBRe
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s2048 x-bits=2048;
dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none
How do I fix this DKIM error? Has the body changed because I add a footer to emails as they pass through?

Yes.

There are two ways to fix it. (1) Don't add a header or footer to the body, and don't munge the subject with [list: serial#] annotations.
This is guaranteed to work, in the sense that the DKIM signature will validate, and presumably DMARC "from alignment" will pass. (2) Use the ARC protocol. Mailman 3 provides the basic functionality, but exactly how you you hook that up to your site's crypto credentials depends on your site. Probably you can just reuse the DKIM key-pair.

ARC may be less reliable, depending on recipient host policy (including whether it participates in ARC at all).

Steve

Odhiambo Washington

7:55 a.m.

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 6:03 PM Stephen Daniel swd@pobox.com wrote:

...

Mailman Gurus --

I run a number of small lists for my neighborhood association. The largest of these is ~120 users. Typical volumes are about 2 messages/day.

In the past week or so a number of users who use gmail as their email client have complained that list emails have been going to spam or "promotions" folders. I've always had 1 or 2 users who had trouble receiving mails, but this seems to be a significant percentage of all gmail users.

I have DMARC mitigation set to unconditional, and the DMARC action set to "Replace From: with list address".

My emails are sent using google workspace as my SMTP relay.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does the above mean that your MM3 instance uses Google Workspace to relay the e-mails to subscribers? If that is the case, then I do not see how Gmail would put perfectly authenticated email in spam/promotion folders, unless something is not quite right with the content of those emails.

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Allan Hansen
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Danil Smirnov
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Mark Sapiro
Odhiambo Washington
Roland Miyamoto
Stephen Daniel
turnbull

Gmail problems?

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