Mailman3 Issue with Sending Mail to Yahoo/AOL
Hi everyone. I have a dedicated Ubuntu box that is running mailman3. I have a single email list on it. The subscriber base is about 350 users. There is a good chunk of these users that are aol.com or yahoo.com users. I've been getting complaints from the Yahoo people that mail is delayed at times, or messages that come out of order.
Looking at the mailq on the box, I can see there are plenty of emails stuck in the queue. I have all sorts of messages like this ...
-Queue ID- --Size-- ----Arrival Time---- -Sender/Recipient------- 3576C540CB4 9917 Tue May 11 11:27:13 pcho-bounces@pchochat.com (host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 452 Too many recipients tnmpmscs (in reply to RCPT TO command)) <removed list of email addresses>
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 421 [IPTS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to end of DATA command)) <removed list of email addresses>
10932540D16 32765 Tue May 11 18:34:13 pcho-bounces@pchochat.com (host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.228.111] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command)) <removed list of email addresses>
(host mx-biz.mail.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.83] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command)) <removed list of email addresses>
(host mx-aol.mail.gm0.yahoodns.net[67.195.228.84] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command))
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.228.111] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command)) <removed list of email addresses>
So it seems that Yahoo/AOL keeps detecting my mailman3 server as either spam, sending too much email, or too many recipients.
This email server is for our neighborhood community. Its moderated to join, and we know every single user on this list. We know it's not being reported as spam by our users.
Anyone anyone shed some light on how to appropriately solve this issue?
I also run a neighborhood email list and ran into the same problem in the past. AOL and Yahoo are owned by Verizon and you are probably having the same issue with Verizon (though Verizon might not be popular in your neighborhood and therefore you don’t see it). At any rate, in my experience Verizon was the root of the problem. I solved this problem by diligently making sure SPF and DKIM were correctly set up. Once I had those set up correctly, the problems disappeared.
On May 12, 2021, at 10:47 AM, chris--- via Mailman-users <mailman-users@mailman3.org> wrote:
Hi everyone. I have a dedicated Ubuntu box that is running mailman3. I have a single email list on it. The subscriber base is about 350 users. There is a good chunk of these users that are aol.com or yahoo.com users. I've been getting complaints from the Yahoo people that mail is delayed at times, or messages that come out of order.
Looking at the mailq on the box, I can see there are plenty of emails stuck in the queue. I have all sorts of messages like this ...
-Queue ID- --Size-- ----Arrival Time---- -Sender/Recipient------- 3576C540CB4 9917 Tue May 11 11:27:13 pcho-bounces@pchochat.com (host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 452 Too many recipients tnmpmscs (in reply to RCPT TO command)) <removed list of email addresses>
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 421 [IPTS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to end of DATA command)) <removed list of email addresses>
10932540D16 32765 Tue May 11 18:34:13 pcho-bounces@pchochat.com (host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.228.111] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command)) <removed list of email addresses>
(host mx-biz.mail.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.83] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command)) <removed list of email addresses>
(host mx-aol.mail.gm0.yahoodns.net[67.195.228.84] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command))
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.228.111] said: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to MAIL FROM command)) <removed list of email addresses>
So it seems that Yahoo/AOL keeps detecting my mailman3 server as either spam, sending too much email, or too many recipients.
This email server is for our neighborhood community. Its moderated to join, and we know every single user on this list. We know it's not being reported as spam by our users.
Anyone anyone shed some light on how to appropriately solve this issue?
Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/
That's the trouble ... I'm certain SPF and DKIM are correct. I've ran them thru the checker, and all appears to pass properly. So I'm really at a loss.
It’s not you. I am managing a neighborhood list too and yahoo flags them for many users as spam. And few times yahoo bounced messages for a day for at least 50% of subscribers. ATT has been even worse. Full bounce of all emails for a week at a time. No problems with any other provider
On May 12, 2021, at 8:00 AM, chris--- via Mailman-users <mailman-users@mailman3.org> wrote:
That's the trouble ... I'm certain SPF and DKIM are correct. I've ran them thru the checker, and all appears to pass properly. So I'm really at a loss.
Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/
Yes. I have been running a private motorsports community mailing list in the SF Bay Area for ~20 years and the only ISP that consistently does this is anything Yahoo touches. And there’s not much you can do about it, other than continue to follow deliverability best practices.
Fortunately, most of the time the email is merely deferred semi-briefly.
But it is a gigantic PITA.
- Mark
mark@pdc-racing.net | 408-348-2878
On May 12, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Apollinaris Schöll <aschoell@gmail.com> wrote:
It’s not you. I am managing a neighborhood list too and yahoo flags them for many users as spam. And few times yahoo bounced messages for a day for at least 50% of subscribers. ATT has been even worse. Full bounce of all emails for a week at a time. No problems with any other provider
On May 12, 2021, at 8:00 AM, chris--- via Mailman-users <mailman-users@mailman3.org> wrote:
That's the trouble ... I'm certain SPF and DKIM are correct. I've ran them thru the checker, and all appears to pass properly. So I'm really at a loss.
Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/
Mailman-users mailing list -- mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/
On 5/12/21 7:47 AM, chris--- via Mailman-users wrote:
Hi everyone. I have a dedicated Ubuntu box that is running mailman3. I have a single email list on it. The subscriber base is about 350 users. There is a good chunk of these users that are aol.com or yahoo.com users. I've been getting complaints from the Yahoo people that mail is delayed at times, or messages that come out of order.
Looking at the mailq on the box, I can see there are plenty of emails stuck in the queue. I have all sorts of messages like this ...
-Queue ID- --Size-- ----Arrival Time---- -Sender/Recipient------- 3576C540CB4 9917 Tue May 11 11:27:13 pcho-bounces@pchochat.com (host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 452 Too many recipients tnmpmscs (in reply to RCPT TO command))
This one's easy to fix. In mailman.cfg set
[mta]
verp_confirmations: yes
verp_personalized_deliveries: yes
verp_delivery_interval: 1
This will provide potentially better bounce processing detection, but will ensure that each message from Mailman has only one envelope recipient.
If you don't want the verping, you can set max_recipients in the
[mta] section to a small number like 5 or 10.
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 421 [IPTS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to end of DATA command))
The above changes may help with this too, but depending on where your
Ubuntu box is located, you may have other issues. Presumably you have a
fixed IP address, but even so, if that address is in a netblock that
looks like home networks it may get blocked by some providers for that
reason alone.
Also, others in this thread have mentioned Verizon. Verizon recently
sold AOL/Yahoo to a private equity firm, Apollo Global Management. What
that means for the new Yahoo is still unclear. Search the web for
verizon sells aol for more info.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
chris--- via Mailman-users writes:
I've been getting complaints from the Yahoo people that mail is delayed at times, or messages that come out of order.
That could be due to greylisting.
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 452 Too many recipients tnmpmscs (in reply to RCPT TO command))
You could try enabling personalization in Mailman. Then each user's message is different, so it will send one per transaction. Depending on negotiation between your MTA and the receiving MTA, this may not be too inefficient because the connection will be reused (aka pipelining). The other possibility would be to tune your MTA to send smaller batches.
However ...
(host mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[67.195.204.74] said: 421 [IPTS04] Messages from 74.112.73.65 temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes (in reply to end of DATA command))
Personalization could exacerbate the problem with unexpected volume depending on how they measure volume (by the number of messages or by the number of recipients). Not much you can do about that except hope they'll learn that sometimes there's list traffic and sometimes there's not.
Have you looked up this error code (IPTS04)?
So it seems that Yahoo/AOL keeps detecting my mailman3 server as either spam, sending too much email, or too many recipients.
I don't think it's detecting spam, or it would say so (or perhaps just blackhole your mail).
Anyone anyone shed some light on how to appropriately solve this issue?
The only real solution is to boot subscribers with AOL/Yahoo/Verizon addresses. That's likely not something you want to do, unfortunately, and subscribers are unlikely to take suggestions that their email provider sucks, and they should change to a competent one, kindly.
Ironically enough, the Japanese government did exactly that in 2014, prohibiting use of Yahoo addresses by government employees or entities -- but yahoo.co.jp is a completely different company from yahoo.com (they licensed the name and the search engine etc), and their email is apparently more competently run, in any case they don't bounce list traffic or cause DMARC problems.
"subscribers are unlikely to take suggestions that their email provider sucks" Sad situation when good email can't be delivered. Maybe it's time for a class action against Yahoo for damages!
Have been in the web business since late 80's and always had issues off and on with Yahoo, AT&T and Microsoft... Never had a problem with Google and Microsoft finally stepped up to a more intelligent mail system.
What this tells me is Yahoo can't handle mail volume processing spam!
We only have 50 business clients sending business only emails and Yahoo is at it again deferring and returning good business emails.
Same clients for over 16 years. No one leaves unless they die or retire!
For the record, I too have had issues with yahoo being a pain, which also in the UK used to affect btinternet and some other ISPs - but I am no longer sure which still use yahoo. Attempting to engage with yahoo about the issues was always met with silence, even when you went through their non-standard process. As you found, telling people their problems lay with their ISP didn't usually go down well. These days, I tell people it's the ISP and then leave it at that, with no further action. LIfe's too short.
In the recent past the problems seem to have died down, though that could just be attrition.
Ruth
On 11/08/2021 20:30, airamericawebhosting@gmail.com wrote:
"subscribers are unlikely to take suggestions that their email provider sucks" Sad situation when good email can't be delivered. Maybe it's time for a class action against Yahoo for damages!
Have been in the web business since late 80's and always had issues off and on with Yahoo, AT&T and Microsoft... Never had a problem with Google and Microsoft finally stepped up to a more intelligent mail system.
What this tells me is Yahoo can't handle mail volume processing spam! We only have 50 business clients sending business only emails and Yahoo is at it again deferring and returning good business emails. Same clients for over 16 years. No one leaves unless they die or retire!
Mailman-users mailing list --mailman-users@mailman3.org To unsubscribe send an email tomailman-users-leave@mailman3.org https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/
-- Tel: 01223 414180 Blog:http://www.ivimey.org/blog LinkedIn:http://uk.linkedin.com/in/ruthivimeycook/
participants (8)
-
airamericawebhosting＠gmail.com -
Apollinaris Schöll -
chris＠zimmerman.to -
Jeff -
Mark Dadgar -
Mark Sapiro -
Ruth Ivimey-Cook -
Stephen J. Turnbull