On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 12:45 PM, Allan Hansen wrote:
All,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses to my call for a removal of the core vs. Django disconnect. From your responses it appears that my suggestion my issues were caused by the Mailman Core was not based in reality. Instead, the issue is how Postorius interacts with the Core. My apologies for overreaching, as the cause of my issues is not an issue to me. Keeping Core a simple list manager is fine, if Postorius is easy to use and does the expected.
As a Subscriber, you are able to do switch emails in subscriptions from your options page. The URL to which is displayed in the List's Summary page when you are logged in. Yes, it requires an approval if the list's settings are set to moderate but that is going to be fixed, see this issue1. It is quite simple IMO to fix this one, if someone wants to take this up.
Well, it’s more than that. Based on the current setup, I have asked my subscribers who want to change their subscription addresses to: a. Create an account if you do not already have one. b. Go to the user profile page. c. Select ‘E-mail Addresses’. d. Add the new e-mail to the user profile. e. Wait for the verification notice and verify the new address. e1. If it does not show send email to hansen@rc.org <mailto:hansen@rc.org> to get the email verified manually. f. Sign in to the account again and to the user profile (or refresh the page if not signed out). g. Select the new address as the primary address. h. Click on ‘Manage Lists’ i. For each list you are subscribed to: i1. Select the list i2. Click ‘List Options Page.’ i3. Pull down the ’Select Email’ menu. i4 Select your new email. i5. Press ‘Change email used for subscription. i6. When the moderator contacts you, explain that you are just changing your email. i6.1. If the moderator is late, send a reminder or send email to hansen@rc.org <mailto:hansen@rc.org> to bypass the moderator.
So, a-f is something we still always want to keep since we aren't going to deal with un-verified email addresses.
Now, Primary Address is something interesting in Mailman 3, which wasn't utilized until now in Postorius. I recently added a new feature to Postorius which allows users to subscribe via their Primary Address and it switches the delivery address when you switch your primary address. You can play with how it looks at https://lists.mailman3.org (Mailman instance serving this list) where you will see "Primary Address (myprimaryemail@example.com)" as an option when subscribing/switching address.
This is still somewhat new feature and there are gaps to it, but it will grow over time. For example, as as admin, you can only subscribe a User's address and not their Primary Address (from Mass Subscription page, or through the CLI commands).
As a User, you are able to switch to using your primary address and then every time you switch your primary address, all your subscription shifts to that new address without any extra steps.
Also, I just created a fix for i61, so switching email addresses won't require approvals anymore. I am still debating if this should be configurable by list owners.
Most people choke on these instructions, so I have unfortunately resorted to just asking them to subscribe the new address and forget about the old. This is not good for our reputation when the old addresses start bouncing. So, in more detail:
I would like to ask my subscribers who want to change their address to: a. Create an account if you did not already have one. b. Go to the user profile page. c. Select ‘E-mail Addresses’. d. Select an existing address e-mail listed the user profile. e. Press new button ‘Change address’. f. When page refreshes, enter the new e-mail address. g. Press ‘Apply.' d. Wait for the verification notice. d1. If it does not show send email to hansen@rc.org <mailto:hansen@rc.org> to get the email verified manually.
In other words, in addition to ‘Make Primary’ and ‘Re-send Verification’ and ‘Remove’, another button says: ‘Change Address’ or’ ‘Replace Address’ or some such.
This button brings up another page that looks the same, but instead of ‘Add E-mail Adress’ is says : Enter New E-mail Address’ and instead of ‘Add E-mail’ is says: ‘Apply’. Then the page refreshes back to the original page, but the new address is now replacing the old address. Optionally, it can show the old address still with a ‘pending change’ until verification.
I am still thinking about a few implementation details of this one, I've created an issue2
I am thinking we could minimize changes by retaining the same workflow for adding and verifying new address, but add a new workflow of some sort to switch subscriptions to a new address with a single button click. This should simplify the Loop of going to each option page and switching addresses. Finally, the old address can be removed.
Another train of thought is that when you Delete your email address, you get an option to switch all the subscriptions on that address to some other address. I could do this by adding a page after you click on "Remove" button. Although, this would restrict the ability to switch subscriptions by only deleting the original one, which I don't want.
Maybe I'll end up implementing both of these.
What do others think about this?
Further, when the new address is verified, all lists get updated with the new address replacing the old address and all settings associated with the old address are now associated with the new address. No moderator or admin involvement needed (other than d1).
The fix1 I mentioned above should already resolve this issue.
You are able to sign in via web and manage your email and subscriptions. The preferences also work exactly how you described above where the lower level override the default and/or upper level settings.
To some extent that is true, Abhilash, and I appreciate that. The above (address change) is a missing piece in that picture and I look forward to seeing it added, if you have time.
Yours,
Allan Hansen hansen@rc.org
On Jun 14, 2020, at 0:19 , Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
Mark Sapiro writes:
Then the people who developed the web based management UI (Postorius) and archive UI (HyperKitty) chose to develop those within a Django framework and Django has its own concept of User separate from Mailman Core and that is where the disconnect occurs.
It's not that Mailman Core lacks what you want. It's that Django doesn't use it.
I think that's mostly right, in terms of the features that users miss. However, as far as I know, Mailman core does lack facilities for identification, authentication, and authorization of connections to the REST API. And that means that the front ends have to handle this. I would guess that's why the web interfaces are built around Django user authentication.
I think it would be possible to have somewhat tighter integration between the Django "web users" and the Mailman core User objects, but it's not necessarily going to be trivial.
I see that Abhilash is pretty optimistic, but I fear this this is going to be a long-tail situation where we're going to be seeing core user vs. web-gui user integration issues in 2030 (maybe by then only 1 every 450 days ;-). I have some ideas, maybe in a couple weeks I can sketch them out.
Steve
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-- thanks, Abhilash Raj (maxking)